Remembering the Past for the Present's Sake

Joachim Gauck, 65, is a theologian. He is perhaps best known in Germany for his role in the early 1990s as commissioner for the office charged with analyzing the extensive files kept by the East German secret police, the Stasi. In 2003 he became head of the association "Against Forgetting -- For Democracy," which engages in critical reviews of the National Socialist and GDR eras as well as political extremism and racism. Gauck has four children and lives in Berlin. In 2005 he received an honorary doctorate from the University of Augsburg.

DW-WORLD: Your association is working with the Warsaw Jewish Historical Institute on a schoolbook with stories from 12 to 18-year-olds who were in concentration camps. Aren't these stories too atrocious for school children?

Joachim Gauck: If we really look at what kinds of horrors children choose themselves to be exposed to, I don't think that's true. German and Polish specialists and teachers are selecting the stories that won't overwhelm readers, but make it possible for them to understand this horrible part of history. We know that these kinds of stories have a greater effect on younger generations when they portray people in their own age groups.

In general, Germans are said to engage in an honest, critical analysis of their own history. Most adults are aware of the crimes Germans committed during that time. Is the work of your association then particularly directed toward young people?

No, our work is aimed at the whole of society. In Germany, unlike anywhere else, we have a very strong culture of remembrance, one that sometimes borders on the neurotic. But at the same time, it seems as if our modern society is divided in two. There is a civil society with its norms and public engagement, but then on the other hand, there is one in which people define themselves increasingly as mere consumers and observers. We can't be satisfied with this kind of dichotomy in society.

Does that mean in Germany we have, regarding remembrance, something that might be called an educational underclass?

Yes, you could say that. Germany is not unique in that way, but we have people who are cut off from the country's cultural debate. In Germany there is general understanding about one's own guilt. But this understanding is decidedly denied by right-wing radicals or extremists or it is simply ignored, unconsciously, by people who feel that have nothing to gain from debates over culture, politics and justice.

So the aim is to reach these people, with for example, this German-Polish schoolbook. But how can remembering atrocities help in the reconciliation of two peoples with this difficult history?

With Germans, remembering helps those children of the Nazi period or those born after it to recognize the heavy guilt that their forebears carry regarding their neighbors. It helps create a certain modesty and thoughtfulness toward those neighbors. We shouldn't have guilt feelings, but we should remember that the concentration camps in Auschwitz were set up by Germans, sometimes by our fathers and grandfathers. From the German side, we want to create a new sense of empathy. For Poles, such a project is further proof that we in Germany recognize their own suffering and are interested in what happened them.

Despite various projects, Poles are still very sceptical regarding Germans. According to recent surveys by the Allensbach Institute, 61 percent of Poles and 38 percent of Czechs think it is probable that the German government will demand the return of German regions lost after World War Two or at least demand compensation for them.

That is really grotesque. The media in Poland are especially guilty of creating such sentiment. I am a great admirer of the Polish mentality and their strong desire for freedom, but at the same time, one has to keep a critical distance. The presentation of current debates has led to firm opinions among some sections of the population that the revanchists -- an old communist propaganda concept -- want to somehow take back former parts of their countries. Those fears are being stirred up again. The conflict about the planned center for expellees has been used to do that, for example. More objective reporting from the local media would be helpful.

According to Allensbach, 41 percent of Poles and 39 percent of Czechs are of the opinion that the real goal of expellee associations is to get back property their members once had.

That just goes to show how distorted the reporting is, since the expellee associations themselves have never made that an issue. The German government would certainly never pursue such a goal. That has been explained repeatedly.

The new Polish president, Lech Kaszynski, fulminated against the planned expellee center in Berlin during the recent election campaign. On Monday, members of the conservatives and Social Democrats in German coalition talks decided there should at least be a "visible sign" that would serve as a reminder of the postwar expulsions. Does that burden German-Polish relations even more?

You see, in Germany, we have a completely different form of historic debate. As the nation that invaded our neighbors and murdered their citizens, we have a special reason to put the focus on our own guilt and responsibility. Ever since the '68 generation, the majority has accepted the fact that German guilt is something we can never deny. That is the reason that our very concept of nation and our self-confidence are so poorly developed. This self-critical way of relating to our own country, which we are so used to, is something that no normal Pole has experienced. He thinks that when a new discussion begins over expellees, that the Germans think like the Poles do. That is what makes this debate so difficult.

That means, then, that German politicians must communicate clearly what kind of special meaning a memorial or center against expulsions would have in Germany. What else can the chancellor-designate, Angela Merkel, do for relations between Germany and Poland?

There is one area where a change of accent could do some good. We have observed time and again, and sometimes with great astonishment, the extremely close relationship the outgoing Chancellor Gerhard Schröder has with Russia and President Putin. Poland is at least as sceptical of its eastern neighbor as it is of its western one, us. With Angela Merkel, a stronger consideration of our immediate neighbor is again possible.

The interview was conducted by Aarni Kuoppamäki (jam)